RT list: "for"

Sorry for the unoriginal header. Hart on Grice on Hart would be perhaps
better! And to our Greek listmember: this is a commentary on P. Sousa´s
query with the list. :). I think it´s a good practice for the list,
though, to keep English lexemes in scare quotes like that. I like my
relevance-theory books to have detailed content index for entries like
that! None of your abstract conceptions like "ascription of
responsibilities and rights". For each conventional implicature and
beyond is so dependent and responsible for its grammatical realisation!

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo Sousa <p.sousa@qub.ac.uk>
To: relevance@linguistics.ucl.ac.uk <relevance@linguistics.ucl.ac.uk>
Sent: Sun, Jan 10, 2010 3:48 pm
Subject: RT list: help on possessive pronoums and preposition "for"

Dear all,

>I'm looking for current work on the semantics and pragmatics of ...of
the preposition "for."
...
2) In relation to the preposition "for", I'm interested in whether one
knows about any discussion of the contribution, if any, this
preposition may give to the meanings of sentences like these:
a) The captain is responsible for the ship (the captain ought to make
sure that the conditions of the ship remain safe)
b) The rain was responsible for the accident (the rain caused the
accident)
c) The captain is responsible for the death of the passengers (the
captain is to blame for the death of the passagers)

  ---- My previous post was written hastily and, like my commentary on
Wharton, after a few failures with the mailer I was using, whence the
consequences. But I keep thinking.

It transpires that possibly Grice´s law, as mentioned in the online
obit of Strawson, "If you can´t put it in symbols, it´s not worth
saying" may have a relevance here. While possibly a Gallicism -- for
shouldn´t the correct English be, "responsible of"? -- the full
procedural meaning -- to use RT ´jargon´, candidly -- for ´for´ does
not seem to be captured in the specific phrase used in (a), (b) and
(c), to wit:

  ´to be responsible for´

(1) The captain is responsible for the ship.
(1b) Tthe captain ought to make sure that the conditions of the ship
remain safe.

But then isn´t the passengers´s safety that the captain is responsible
for? I always thought it a good practice, incidentally, that the
Titanic or other ship´s captains should shoot if they are not
responsible enough, or pretty damn irresponsible. (I don´t think I
would oversleep in a transatlantic crossing like that, or miss an
iceberg, even the tip of it).

So here it´s, as they say in America, all about the ´liability´. The
captain is liable and pays it with their life (I´m using ´their´ to
allow for any gender in one´s captain of their souls).

Sousa´s second:

(2) The rain was responsible for the accident.
(2b) The rain caused the accident.

Well, this has a Humean ring to it -- vide Grice, WoW, reference to
´cause´ as criticised as animistic talk by Hume. Confront Greek "aitia"
for cause in 2b. A rebel without a cause. Grice, Pacific Philosophical
Quarterly, 1986, for an analysis of ´cause´ as FINAL cause only in
Aristotelian parlance. (2) seems pretty animistic if not downright
false. I am particularly appaled to read, before my morning cup of
coffee, and in the local English-speaking dailies, too, things like

(2c) Three men killed in a storm.

It turns out that it was the naughty, ever-wicked rain (what the Irish
called "a storm"? I recall getting insults in PHILOS-L once for
discussing Hare´s use of "Irish sense" in his "Practical Inferences"
and retrieving from the OED2 examples of "Irish", one of which applied
to a ´storm´. "Irish storm", a calm sea, or something.

Accident is also a bad Aristotelianism, if I may say so. Recall Hobbes,
and his brilliant entry in OED2, ¨That´s not philosophy, that´s
Aristotelity". It may relate to Grice´s commentary on some misuses of
words by, of all people, Hart, in WoW, i. For Hart would like to say
that

(2d) Accidents occur.

is _vague_ and otiose. Only unusual events have causes, would Hart say.
Grice protested, and loudly! "I must just as well say that a horse
cannot look like a horse!"

The rain is mainly responsible for daisies to bloom. Oddly, for the
Greeks, the rain represented the urine of Zeus, I believe. Cfr. Orion
and the Milky Way. In which case, yes, it would be Zeus, for him, that
was responsible for the growth of my daisies. (Idioms with flowers were
a favourite topic with Grice: note his "pushing up the daisies" or
"fertilising the daffodils".

Sousa´s third:

(3) The captain is responsible for the death of the passengers.
(3b) Tthe captain is to blame for the death of the passagers.

Unless he (the passenger) was such a villain that the captain is
actually to be praised by damn blame, as it were. But let´s not ramble.
And focus on the ´being responsible for´as it relates to your three
sentences and their follow-up clausesÑ

  (3) responsible for the DEATH, i.e.
  a causative:

  In symbols CAPTAIN (CAUSE (PASSENGER (DIE)).

  (2) rain responsible for accident.
  Misuse or personified metaphor or category
  mistake re: the use of ´responsible´. Have you
  checked the etym. of responsible? It strikes me
  that the re- is possibly otiose. But if it´s a derivative
  of "response", surely the logical form of this
  -- or the symbol, to use Grice´s parlance --
  would require that, literally, the rain should respond,
  or provide a response, which I cannot imagine can
  be other than adding a electric shot to it (Rains
  don´t like to be told to respond). It strikes me
  as odd that all words ending in -ible are usually
  passive and with a deontic sense to it

  incredible: that it should not be credited.

  -- which does not seem to be the case with
  responsibility.

  The locus classicus here may be

  Hart, The ascription of RESPONSIBILITY.
  with Gricean caveats, of course.

  (1) responsible for the ship.

I think it´s the ship builder who is responsible for the ship -- to use
Hobbes´s example of the ship as temporal-relative identity. If you mean
that ´no-one´ beyond him, that may be a simplified ´navy´ -- as per
Royal Navy -- restriction. Surely there are officers _above_ a captain
(I cannot imagine a captain other than Ralph in "H. M. S. Pinafore" --
oddly Grice retired from the R. N. with the degree of a captain, too)
who are responsible for things. If it´s H. M. S., the overall
responsible is the Queen, as in "Sink the Belgrano!¨ -- not even
Thatcher, as she thought she was ("Gotcha!")

But I don´t think this relates to "for" at all. "For" is a good
Anglo-Saxon preposition, slightly misused in your examples. It´s best,
since you also query about the possessives and genitives re possessive
pronouns, to consider the Latin,

  responsible of the crime

In most Romance languages, indeed, it seems ´responsable´ is followed
by Latin "de". While we can say, I hope, in French, "responsable pour"
I would let D. Sperber decide about that!

(Indeed a cursory look at the French-English dict. online suggests we
use "responsable de", and even "responsible for doing" to translate as
"chargE DE faire"). (Ditto, the Italian section of the same online
dictionary suggests only ´responsabile di´ to translate "responsible
FOR").

One should check with the Latin to get this right. For if
"responsability" is a Romance or Latin notion, surely the Anglos cannot
get away with it and use "for" like that!

---- The online Short & Lewis should be of help -- for Eng. responsible
is from the Anglo-Norman and ultimately Latin responsus, and
respondere). (And I think relevance listmembers should have a field day
with all the ´government of cases´ which fascinated Grice as he studied
Latin at Clifton! (He was safe enough to get to Corpus with a having of
the thing!)

Cheers,

J. L. Speranza
  for the Grice Circle, etc.

Appendix:

rē-spondĕo , di, sum, 2, v. a.
I. Lit., to promise a thing in return for something else; to offer or
present in return. So, only in a few examples, the phrase par pari
(dat.) respondere, to return like for like: par pari respondes dicto,
you return tit for tat with your tongue (syn. refero), Plaut. Pers. 2,
2, 41; cf.: istuc serva; et verbum verbo par pari ut respondeas, Ter
Phorm. 1, 4, 35; and: “paria paribus respondimus,” Cic. Att. 6, 1, 23.—
Pass.: provide, si cui quid debetur, ut sit, unde par pari
respondeatur, i. e. that there be wherewithal to meet the demand,
Atticus ap. Cic. Att. 16, 7, 6; cf. also under II. A. 1, the lusus
verbb. with spondeo; and II. B. init.—
II. In a more general signification.
A. To answer, reply, respond (either to a question, or to any statement
or remark, and either in a friendly or hostile signif.); constr.
aliquid alicui, ad, adversus, contra aliquem (aliquid).
1. In gen.
a. Lit.: Th. Aliud te rogo. Tr. Aliud ergo nunc tibi respondeo, Plaut.
Most. 5, 1, 70; cf. id. Merc. 1, 2, 73.—Absol.: “prius respondes, quam
rogo,” Plaut. Merc. 2, 3, 119: “eā legatione Papirius auditā ...
respondit,” Liv. 9, 14, 2; 27, 40, 8; 33, 38, 7; Nep. Milt. 1, 4: “ille
appellatus respondit,” Caes. B. G. 5, 36; 5, 41; Cic. Leg. 3, 13, 30;
Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 62, § 138; id. Fam. 3, 6, 2; 5, 2, 8; 7, 24, 2; “9,
14, 2. — So usu. of an oral answer: tibi non rescribam, sed
respondeam,” Sen. Ep. 67, 2; “but also of writing: epistulae,” Cic.
Att. 9, 9, 1 et saep.; v. infra: “ab his sermo oritur, respondet
Laelius,” Cic. Lael. 1, 5; Plaut. Men. 5, 5, 28: olli respondit rex
Albaï Longaï, Enn. ap. Fortun. p. 2691 P. (Ann. v. 34 Vahl.): “cui
orationi Caepionis ore respondit Aelius,” Cic. Brut. 46, 169:
“criminibus,” id. Planc. 2, 4: “supremae tuae paginae,” id. Att. 6, 2,
1: “cui opinioni,” Quint. 4, 4, 1: “tam aequae postulationi,” id. 7, 1,
47 al.: “summā constantiā ad ea, quae quaesita erant, respondebat,”
Cic. Phil. 1, 1, 2; cf.: “arbitrabar me satis respondisse ad id quod
quaesierat Laelius,” id. Rep. 2, 39, 65: “nec absurde adversus utrosque
respondisse visus est,” Liv. 35, 50; 8, 32: “adversus haec imperator
respondit,” id. 30, 31; 33, 35 fin.— With acc. of neutr. pron.: “illud
respondere cogam,” to make answer to that, Cic. Cael. 28, 67; cf. id.
Vatin. 7, 18; 17, 41: “multa contra patronos venuste testis saepe
respondet,” Quint. 5, 7, 31; 5, 7, 24; cf.: “accipe, quid contra
juvenis responderit,” Hor. S. 2, 3, 233.— With object-clause:
“respondent, bello se et suos tutari posse,” Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 59; id.
Curc. 2, 3, 54; id. Mil. 2, 2, 23; id. Merc. 5, 2. 102 al. —Introducing
a direct answer: “cum dixisset, Quid agis, Grani? respondit, Immo vero
tu, Druse, quid agis!” Cic. Planc. 14, 33; id. Att. 5, 21, 12; id. Inv.
1, 31, 51; id. Tusc. 5, 19, 56.— In impers. perf.: “postquam mihi
responsum est, abeo, etc.,” Plaut. Curc. 2, 3, 57; cf. id. Mil. 4, 2,
93: quid nunc renunciem abs te responsum? Ter. Heaut. 4, 8, 18: “sic
existimet: Responsum non dictum esse, quia laesit prior,” id. Eun.
prol. 6.— In plur.: “multa ejus et in senatu et in foro vel provisa
prudenter vel acta constanter vel responsa acute ferebantur,” Cic.
Lael. 2, 6.— In the sup.: “(haec) quam brevia responsu,” Cic. Clu. 59
fin.— In a lusus verbb. with spondeo: Er. Sponden' tu istud? He.
Spondeo. Er. At ego, tuum tibi advenisse filium, respondeo, and in
return I promise you, i. e. assure you, Plaut. Capt. 4, 2, 119; cf.:
“fideiussores, qui salvam rempublicam fore responderunt, etc.,”
promised, gave assurance, Dig. 50, 1, 17 fin.—
b. Trop., to answer, respond, reply to, re-echo, resound, etc.: “saxa
et solitudines voci respondent,” Cic. Arch. 8, 19; “respondent flebile
ripae,” Ov. M. 11, 53; and: “respondentia tympana,” Stat. Achill. 2,
175: urbes coloniarum respondebunt Catilinae tumulis silvestribus, will
give an answer to, i. e. will prove a match for, Cic. Cat. 2, 11, 24.—
2. In partic.
a. Of lawyers, priests, oracles, etc., to give an opinion, advice,
decision, response: “quaeris, num juris consultus (sit)? quasi quisquam
sit, qui sibi hunc falsum de jure respondisse dicat,” Cic. Planc. 25,
62; so, “de jure,” id. Brut. 30, 113; cf.: “de jure consulentibus
respondere,” id. Mur. 4, 9; “in a like signif., also simply jus,” id.
Leg. 1, 4, 12: “facultas respondendi juris,” id. ib. 2, 12, 29; id. de
Or. 1, 45, 198; Plin. Ep. 6, 15, 3 al.; cf.: “civica jura,” Hor. Ep. 1,
3, 24; and: “quae consuluntur, minimo periculo respondentur, etc.,”
Cic. Mur. 13, 28; id. Brut. 89, 306. —Absol., Dig. 2, 14, 7; and so
very freq. of the jurists in the Digests; “v. responsum: pater Roscii
ad haruspices retulit: qui responderunt, nihil illo puero clarius
fore,” Cic. Div. 1, 36, 79: “cum ex prodigiis haruspices
respondissent,” Sall. C. 47, 2; Liv. 27, 37; 31, 5; 5, 54; Vell. 2, 24,
3: “responsum est,” Suet. Aug. 94, 97: “deliberantibus Pythia
respondit, ut moenibus ligneis se munirent,” gave advice, Nep. Them. 2,
6; cf. Just. 11, 11, § 11: “possumus seniores amici quiete respondere,”
to give advice, Tac. A. 14, 54 fin.—
b. Of the answering of a person summoned when his name is called;
hence, meton., to appear: citatus neque respondit neque excusatus est,
Varr. ap. Gell. 11, 1, 4; cf.: “cives, qui ad nomina non
respondissent,” Liv. 7, 4: “quia Romae non respondebant,” id. 39, 18;
Val. Max. 6, 3, 4; Suet. Tib. 38; id. Ner. 44; Hor. S. 1, 9, 36
(vadato, dat., i.e. ei qui eum vadatus erat; v. vador); Dig. 3, 3, 35;
41, 1, 14 et saep.—
(b). Esp., to appear before a tribunal, to answer an accusation, meet a
charge, etc.: “perfectus in exsilium Tubulus est nec respondere ausus,”
Cic. Fin. 2, 16, 54: “Verrem alterā actione responsurum non esse,” Cic.
Verr. 2, 1, 1, § 1: “nemo Epaminondam responsurum putabat,” Nep. Epam.
8, 1.—
(g). Transf., in gen., to appear, be present: “ipsi (sc. paeon et
herous) se offerent et respondebunt non vocati,” Cic. de Or. 3, 49,
191: “verba (with res se ostendent),” Quint. 10, 3, 9: “ut ii, qui
debent, non respondeant ad tempus,” Cic. Att. 16, 2, 2; cf.: “podagra
ad tempus (with venit ad horam),” Sen. Q. N. 3, 16, 1: “sanguis per
menstrua,” Cels. 4, 4, 5.—
B. To answer to; to meet, agree, accord, or correspond with a thing;
constr. usually with dat. or absol.: “ut omnia omnibus paribus paria
respondeant,” Cic. N. D. 1, 19, 50: “ut horum auctoritatibus illorum
orationi, qui dissentiunt, respondere posse videamur,” id. Imp. Pomp.
23, 68: “ut verba verbis quasi demensa et paria respondeant,” id. Or.
12, 38; and: “respondent extrema primis, media utrisque, omnia
omnibus,” id. Fin. 5, 28, 83: (Aristoteles dicit) illam artem (sc.
rhetoricam) quasi ex alterā parte respondere dialecticae, that it
corresponds to, i. e. forms the counterpart of, id. Or. 32, 114:
“aedificare alteram porticum quae Palatio responderet,” id. Har. Resp.
23, 49; cf. “of a locality: contra elata mari respondet Gnosia tellus,”
i. e. lies opposite, Verg. A. 6, 23: “Pachyni pulsata Ionio respondent
saxa profundo,” Sil. 14, 73: “est mihi magnae curae, ut ita erudiatur
(Lucullus), ut et patri et Caepioni nostro et tibi tam propinquo
respondeat,” Cic. Fin. 3, 2, 8: satis Graecorum gloriae responderunt,
id. Tusc. 1, 2, 3: “tua virtus opinioni hominum,” id. Fam. 2, 5, 2; id.
Lael. 16, 56: “fortuna meis optatis,” id. Fam. 2, 1, 2; cf.: “seges
votis,” Verg. G. 1, 47: “arma Caesaris non responsura lacertis,” Hor.
Ep. 2, 2, 48: “favor meritis,” id. ib. 2, 1, 9: “ne prior officio
quisquam respondeat,” id. S. 2, 6, 24: “par fama labori,” id. ib. 2, 8,
66: “fructus labori,” Ov. F. 4, 641: “non mihi respondent veteres in
carmine vires,” id. H. 15, 197 al.: “familiam nemo speciosiorem
producet, sed hominibus non respondet,” he does not pay his debts, Sen.
Ep. 87, 6: “amori amore respondere,” i. e. to return it, repay it, Cic.
Fam. 15, 21, 4; cf.: “Quinti fratris liberalitati subsidiis amicorum,”
id. Att. 4, 3, 6: “qui ex vico ortus est, eam patriam intellegitur
habere, cui reipublicae vicus ille respondet,” to which it belongs,
Dig. 50, 1, 30.— “In mal. part.: mulieribus,” Plaut. Mil. 4, 1,
17.—With ad: “respondere ad parentum speciem,” resemble, Varr. R. R. 2,
5, 9: “deformentur directiones, ut longitudines ad regulam et lineam,
altitudines ad perpendiculum, anguli ad normam respondentes exigantur,”
Vitr. 7, 3; cf.: “structuram ad perpendiculum respondere oportet,”
Plin. 36, 22, 51, § 172: “quia non tota ad animum responderat (villa),”
Suet. Caes. 48: “ad spem eventus respondit,” Liv. 28, 6.—With dat.:
“Papirio quoque brevi ad spem eventus respondit,” Liv. 9, 15.— With ex:
“quicquid non ex voluntate respondet, iram provocat,” Sen. Ep. 47, 19:
“speculum quocumque obvertimus oris, Res sibi respondent simili formā
atque colore,” i. e. correspond, are reflected, Lucr. 4, 167.— Absol.:
“sidera respondent in aquā,” Lucr. 4, 213: “quia raro verba belle
respondeant,” Quint. 6, 3, 48: medicus aliquid oportet inveniat, quod
non ubique fortasse, sed saepius tamen etiam respondeat, may answer, be
suitable, Cels. praef.—
C. To return, make a return, yield: “frumenta quando cum quarto
responderint (sc. colono),” have returned, yielded, Col. 3, 3, 4; cf.
with abl. and dat.: “humus cum est repetita cultu, magno fenore colono
respondet,” id. 2, 1, 3: “vitis, nisi praepingui solo, non respondet,”
id. 3, 2, 11; cf.: “metalla plenius responsura fodienti,” Sen. Ep. 23,
5.—Hence, rēspon-sum , i, n., an answer, reply, response (equally freq.
in sing. and plur.).
1. In gen.: “suis postulatis responsa exspectare,” Caes. B. C. 1, 5
fin.: “haec paucis diebus ex illius ad nostra responsa responsis
intellegentur, quorsum evasura sint,” Cic. Att. 7, 17, 4: “responsum
senatūs,” Liv. 7, 31: “sine responso legatos dimisit,” id. 9, 38:
“nullo ab nostris dato responso,” Caes. B. G. 5, 58: “responsum dedisti
tantis de rebus,” Cic. Verr. 2, 5, 16, § 40; 2, 4, 39, § 85; so, “dare
responsum,” Liv. 5, 32, 8; Val. Max. 9, 5, ext. 3; Curt. 3, 12, 9; Liv.
3, 50, 12: “reddere alicui,” Cic. Planc. 14, 34; cf.: “triste
redditum,” Liv. 9, 16: “ferre (ab aliquo),” to receive, Cic. Cat. 1, 8,
19; Caes. B. G. 6, 4 fin.: “referre (ab aliquo),” to deliver, Cic. Att.
7, 17, 2; Hirt. B. G. 8, 23; Liv. 37, 6: “elicere,” Quint. 5, 7, 20:
“petere,” Hor. C. S. 55: “responsum accipere,” Liv. 5, 36, 4; Just. 12,
2, 8: “responsum non fuit in eis,” Vulg. Jer. 5, 13.—
2. In partic. (acc. to II. A. 2.), an answer, reply of a lawyer,
priest, oracle, etc.; an opinion, response, oracle: “cum responsumque
ab eo (Crasso) verum magis, quam ad suam rem accommodatum abstulisset,
etc.,” Cic. de Or. 1, 56, 239: “res judicatae, decreta, responsa,” id.
ib. 2, 27, 116; id. Mur. 13, 29.— “The responsa prudentium, or
authoritative opinions of leading lawyers, were an important source of
the Roman law,” Just. Inst. 1, 2, 8 Sandars ad loc.: “haruspicum
responsa,” Cic. Cat. 3, 4, 9; cf. Quint. 5, 10, 30; Ov. M. 3, 340; 527:
“legatus a Delphis Romam rediit, responsumque ex scripto recitavit,”
Liv. 23, 11; cf. id. 1, 56; Quint. 3, 7, 11; 5, 7, 35; Tac. H. 1, 10;
4, 65 al.; Plaut. Ps. 1, 5, 65; Ter. And. 4, 2, 15; Verg. A. 7, 86 et
saep.— “In eccl. Lat.: responsum Dei, ab angelo, etc.,” Vulg. Mich. 3,
7; id. Luc. 2, 26; id. Act. 10, 22.
Received on Sun Jan 10 23:29:29 2010